Transcript: Race in America: Giving Voice with Poorna Jagannathan, Actor, “Never Have I Ever”

Dec 18, 2023

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Hello, and welcome to Washington Post Live. I’m Bina Venkataraman. I’m a columnist at The Post.

Today in our Race in America series, we're joined by Poorna Jagannathan, who stars in the Netflix hit series, "Never Have I Ever." Welcome to Washington Post Live, Poorna.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: I can't hear you, Bina. Hold on. I can't hear you.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: We're just welcoming you. It sounds like there was a little bit of a delay. I was just saying hello, and it's so great to have you here, but sounds like you can't hear me.

We have a bit of an audio dilemma here. So hang out--hang on, everybody. I'm sure we're going to fix this in a moment. We have just a problem with the connection and the audio.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Hey, Carlos, I don't know if you're there, but I can't hear you. Can you hear me, Bina?

MS. VENKATARAMAN: I can't hear Poorna either. So hopefully, we'll get this ironed out in a second.

[Pause]

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Hi, Bina.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Hello, Poorna.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Can you hear me? Hi.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: I can hear you.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Yeah, I can hear you fine.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Beautiful.

[Pause]

[Video plays]

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Hello, and welcome to Washington Post Live. I'm Bina Venkataraman, and I'm a pop columnist at The Post.

Today in our Race in America series, it's a pleasure to welcome Poorna Jagannathan. She stars in the Netflix hit series, "Never Have I Ever."

Welcome to Washington Post Live, Poorna.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Thank you, Bina Venkataraman, for saying my name perfectly.

[Laughter]

MS. VENKATARAMAN: There's a reason for that, I think. It's we share some background here.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: With the same amount of letters in our name.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: That too, right. The pain of spelling one's name over and over.

[Laughter]

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Maybe we'll get to that.

So the fourth and final season of this really incredible and worldwide popular series is about to come out, and I'm just wondering how you're feeling at this moment, a couple days before it releases.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: You know, we went through--we went through filming and all that, and it's only now during the last couple of days that it's sinking in. We've had to revisit a lot of conversations on how the show's given everyone a sense of belonging, our own growth during the four seasons, our own sense of community that's come from this, our own sense of identity that's come from this, and it's just hitting me now that it's over. The ride is over. What shows like "Never Have I Ever" do is just create so much more space for people like us and stories for people like us to exist, and it has been a tremendous privilege to be part of it.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: We'll get to the end of the ride maybe a little bit later again, but I want to start with how the ride started for you. So this role is a mother, an immigrant mother of a teenage girl, high school girl, and it's sort of labeled in the genre of young adults. And you talked about how you didn't want to be a, quote, "Disney mom." You told Vanity Fair that you didn't want to be a Disney mom.

And so I'm wondering, when you read the script, when you talked to the co-creators, Mindy Kaling and Lang Fisher, what actually convinced you that you wanted to take this role of Nalini, the mother?

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Well, I mean, I wanted to be part of the sense of humor that, you know, Mindy--and the Mindy verse has a very particular tone to it, and I always wanted to be a part of it. I find Mindy's reverent tone absolutely hilarious.

The way that the whole YA thing worked out is that during the last few days when we were down to negotiating, I kept seeing Netflix, what I thought was YA. And I just thought it was their logo that they had added in, like, you know, Nike, "Just do it." It was Netflix-YA or something. I had no--I didn't know what the YA category was. I was so stupid.

And so I asked [unclear], "What is "YA"? and he's like, it's Y-A. And suddenly the--it was like a deflated balloon because, you know, I started acting so late in life, when I was 35, and I had such a yearning, such a calling. Well, I'm an immigrant mom, and when I saw depictions of immigrant moms, especially South Asian immigrant moms, they were just the punchline, and they were never the plotline. There was no dimension to them. You know, not only in my life as an immigrant, but in my mom's and my aunt's, there's so much joy, grief, longing for home, conflict, sexuality, womanhood, navigation that has to be done. And all the other portrayals just lacked all of it. We were just foils to our kids, right, in all these other portrayals.

So I didn't want--I didn't want that for myself. I didn't want to show up for myself like that, and I don't want to show up for my community like that. So I had a very pivotal conversation with them saying, "I love you guys. I'm dying to work with you guys. I'm dying to be part this project. However, I cannot show up this point in my life as a Disney mother." And they--and by that, I don't mean to diss Disney, just more like, you know, just more of that that foil that shows up so often. And they assured me that they don't even know how to write like that, and it's very much within their tone.

And it's true. This is Netflix's edgiest YA comedy.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: And it sounds like--that sounds like a very collaborative approach, and from what the word on the street is is that you've also had some input and details on the set and details about the characters that have made it more authentic. And I just have to say that I personally have appreciated so many of the very specific cultural touchstones, the fact that you call--you know, that Nalini calls a baby "kana," which is what my parents called me, a term of endearment in our culture, the fact that you eat with your hands at the table. Can you say more about your role in making those cultural touchdowns so specific?

MS. JAGANNATHAN: I mean, I have to say this is a very powerful female-led set, and I have noticed that on female-led sets, it's a much more collaborative process than not. And look, writing "Never Have I Ever" is so tight, so funny. It's so light in its feet, but the writing allows so much space to bring yourself to the script for every character.

They from day one just gave all of us actors complete ownership, and we really always set the tone. We always collaborated. We always--I would bring props from home at least once a week. Like, you know, there's--the thing that I love is that there's no translation. There's no footnotes. Like you just do the action or you say the words, and no one is translating for you.

So even in season four--I'm allowed to talk about this, but there's, you know--Nalini wears a thaali--or it's a mangalsutra, rather, that she wore when she got married. It's like the equivalent of a wedding ring, a South Indian wedding ring.

But, you know, my mother, when my dad passed, would just hold on to that [unclear]. She wore it for three years after he had passed, and I was always clocking what she was doing with it. And one day I went and visited her, and it was off. And so we had that conversation, and I wanted that journey to mirror my mother's journey with [audio distortion]. We talk about it a lot when it's the right moment, symbolically to take it off.

Everything from the script to what I wear is so deeply collaborative. We source all the clothes from designers from India, who are all my friends and who I've grown up with. And the costume designer, Glinda Suarez, is so committed to having not only an authentic representation, but modern representation of what an immigrant woman looks like.

So everything--I can go scene by scene by scene and show you everything that either I brought in or we talked about. Before every meal, the props person would ask me what I want to eat, and I'd share recipes and--you know, it was the most collaborative experience, and it is because they trusted us to bring the characters to life, and they trusted us to bring our full selves, which is all our heritage, all our knowledge, all our wisdom, all our experiences that we didn't even know we had.

You know, there was a scene where we're all praying, and all of us knew the shlokas or the mantras or the prayers that we all just grew up with, and I didn't even realize I knew all the words to it until we were on set.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: That's beautiful and sounds kind of rare in Hollywood from what I know, and I'm curious for you and your character, were there any moments where you felt like something was just off in the process of delivering your lines, and you had to kind of pivot into something that felt more authentic?

MS. JAGANNATHAN: I don't remember one instance, and if it was, we'd fix it before I shot. Again, the door was always open, and I say I don't remember. There must have been a lot of instances actually, but it never was a problem. It's like, "Oh, this doesn't work. Can I start--can I try something new?" So we'd get it as scripted, and then we'd get it as an improv. So the answer was, of course, it probably happened on every single scene every day. It was just never an issue. So it just feels like the answer to that is actually no, just--it just felt like a collaborative process.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Well, I want to give the--

MS. JAGANNATHAN: I know. I know. Hold on. My first day on set, Maitreyi--Devi started shooting a couple of days before I did, and she had already shot a scene in the house. She goes up the stairs, and I came in later. And I noticed she was wearing shoes in the house, and I said, "Oh no, this is a shoe-free household," and so they justified that, you know, she had come into the house, and mom wasn't there, so she felt okay to whatever. But from that day onwards, we were a shoe-free household.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Makes sense. I can't imagine an Indian immigrant family where their--where their shoes are the common norm.

So I want to play for the audience today, a short preview clip from the fourth season, a scene of you and your fellow actors, and so I hope the team can cue that up.

[Video plays]

MS. VENKATARAMAN: So I have to just appreciate that this is a really funny script, that the writing on this show is funny, and the delivery is funny too. And of course, it's about a teenager seeking romance, having sex, exploring the sort of world of boys, a teenage girl, but at a deeper level, this is also very much a story of a mother and a daughter grieving the loss of a husband and a father. And it's a very moving story of grief, and your character, we see in this little preview of the fourth season kind of having a different experience than what we saw when we first met her. She's sort of very deep in her grief, and she goes through a number of transformations, you know, learning, you know, dating herself, opening up to her daughter dating, making a friend, sort of becoming more open to new experiences that follow the death of her husband.

I'm curious, for you, did you have to draw any personal experiences of grief to sort of create and play this character so authentically?

MS. JAGANNATHAN: I have one skill as an actor, and that is I can pick the script. I know when the script is going to work, and the trick is to pick the script that will have the emotions for you. So you don't have to come into the script with anything. You just have to say the words, and it--whatever is happening, the circumstances will just show up, right?

And so, of course, you know, I lost my father and the--and kind of the beautiful last--the scene where you're throwing ashes at the end of season one is--you know, I never got to do that for my dad, and it was kind of very, very cathartic and beautiful, but you know there--we shoot a scene about 40 times, right? It's my call. It's my--it's my camera. It's their camera. It's a group camera. It's the--from above--like it's a lot. And I know with this particular script, especially with the more emotionally charged scenes, I can stay in a place, a very particular emotional place because the writing allows me to. It just allows me to be vulnerable and to stay with the character's grief, like it was my own, in a very natural, organic, and authentic way. But that can only happen with good writing. I have done scripts where, you know, like--my kid is drowning and--but it's badly written, and I just don't have any emotion at all.

But it's--it is the writing, and I will say the writing comes from a very intensely personal place. Both Mindy and Lang have lost parents, and so have many of the writers in the writers' room, and they--this is--this is a love letter to their parents, this show. It's kind of just fierce family love and stuff that they perhaps never got to say to their parents, stuff that they wish they had said. It has all of the unsaid in this script, and I think that's why this show, more than any other, just feels like it's watched by parents and their kids together.

I mean, I have a kid, and we don't watch any other show except this one together.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: You're making me wish I watched the show with my parents. I haven't done that yet, but it does just have so many details about the dynamics and sort of the unsaid, the repressed emotions that happen, the sort of ways in which we try to earn respect.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: It's such a deep and beautiful and honest--like just that scene you saw, it's such a great anatomy of grief, because in grief you talk about healing, and you let go. And you talk about, you know, moving on and moving forward. But the truth is one day when you're in grief, you wake up, and the grief has left you. You haven't let go of it, you know.

So you know, that scene is just Nalini's kind of realization that, God, we're not reacting to things in the same way. We're not--we're not doing the stuff that we used to do because this darkness seems to have lifted. And so it's a really--it's one of--for me, one of the most gorgeous depictions of grief on television.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: So what else can we expect from your character in this fourth and final season? Where is this arc taking us in her transformation?

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Well, I wonder what I can tell you. There's some very--there's a very hot man that I don't know if I can tell you.

[Laughter]

MS. VENKATARAMAN: I really--I really want to hear about the hot man now.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Very hot man. Nalini has impeccable taste in clothes and clearly men. I am so--

MS. VENKATARAMAN: I was going to say hotter than Common? Because you were with Common at one point in this series.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: That was very hot.

[Laughter]

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Yes.

Nalini, you know, I think when the show ends, everyone is exactly where they need to be, which is very hard for a last episode to pull off, because there's so many storylines. But there is such a feeling like it's a graduation for every character on the show. It feels like they're moving on to the next thing, and it's exciting, and it's hopeful, and it's loving, and it's optimistic. And instead of feeling so sad for the show to end, you have like a feeling like they're on to something bigger, better, amazing because they've healed so much.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: So you've talked a lot about the writing, and you've given a lot of credit to the writers here. And one thing I noticed in watching this series is that season by season, the number of South Asian characters seems to grow. And I'm wondering if that was intentional with respect to this show and what your own reflections are on having multiple characters of South Asian descent and how that affects representation.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: There was one time when we were shooting season one, I guess. It was the Ganesh festival, the Ganesh Puja. And, you know, we'd been shooting, and we were--we knew there was a very special show, very special experience, but we were suddenly on set. And there was just a sea of brown people in front of me, and there are all these actors I had, you know, kind of done my career with and it was so unbelievable that there were all these people dressed in sarees and kurtas. We were all on the Universal lot. Like that--you know, that kept happening every season. We were celebrating Golu and we were celebrating--you know, there's a wedding, and every--this is what Hollywood looks like all of a sudden. And, you know, to be a small part of a show that can do that is extraordinary.

I can describe it, what it means to be. So every time we get a new script and there's a new character added, a lot of times, it's not specified what race, unless it's South Asian. But the funny thing is that you're like--they must like--it's time to get a Caucasian actor on set. Like I'm sure the networks is--no. It's always an actor of color. This is so--such a radically diverse show. It's people with different sexualities. We're talking about mental health. We're talking about, you know, all these topics that are not shown on any--forget YA. It's just--it's not covered anywhere. But, you know, you--I grew up on sets where I was the only Indian. I was the only--not only Indian, but I was filling a person of color quota somehow. I was the only person of color on so many sets, and it is funny because you--I always felt like a guest on set. I never felt like I belonged. I felt like it was some stroke of luck, luck or diversity quota. I always second guessed myself, but suddenly to be on a set that is so, so diverse and has opened the conversation in a real way about diversity, [unclear] you're lucky to be part of it and to have experienced it.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: We have a question from an audience member that relates to this. So Piper Hendricks of Washington, D.C., asks, "I deeply appreciate your focus on the impact of the stories we tell. Would you share examples of how on-screen representation changes how the audience interacts with people off screen?"

MS. JAGANNATHAN: This is not directly answering your question, but I had a very moving interaction with--I was in India maybe a month ago, and this young woman came up to me. She's trans Indian. She's trans, and she thanked me for the show, but she also thanked me for mothering her, especially during the times when her own mother couldn't show up for her.

There are such few--how do I best say this? A depiction of family on TV like ours is actually so important because everyone will find--no matter who they are and what race they are, what sexuality they are, they will find a place within our family, and therefore, they will find a place within our storylines. And our particular storyline is really like coming of age and healing and being more intimate, having more intimate relationship with your parents and more real relationships. Nalini feels so seen by her daughter, Devi, as Devi feels seen by Nalini at the end of it, a place that we never thought they could go to when the show began. And so when people see that, they find themselves being mothered and fathered and sistered and siblinged by all of us. And that means something. They carry it out.

I also think--I mean, especially for my character--how they see immigrant Indian women, I feel the show is really changing that, how they understand South Asian culture. I think the show has completely shifted that.

I think it--I think it helps you understand. I mean, there was such a conversation on--there's such an anti-immigration conversation. The show came out during just that time. I feel like it really fostered understanding what is known as the other through the show. I really feel like it just put a face to an immigrant experience that people could relate to. It's such a specific story, and yet it feels so universal and so relatable. Did I answer your question?

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Yeah. Yes, I think you did, and I think pulling that off without just stereotyping a character is quite a complicated endeavor. You know, just thinking of it as a writer myself, you know, I remember this scene where your character, you know, she's terrified, absolutely mortally terrified of the moped, like the Vespa, I think. And--but then we see her kind of go through a transformation where she drives the--she decides to drive the Vespa. So her--we don't just see her stay in the place of someone who is fearful. We see her sort of like embody courage or change or embody and embrace something different.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Yeah.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: So you talked a lot about the importance of the diversity of the writers' room but also sort of the inclusive mindset of the writers' room where they're thinking about these different kinds of characters. And I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you. You know, here we are entering the sixth week of the Writers Guild strike. Hollywood is obviously not as diverse as it could be or even should be ultimately, and do you worry about the status of writers of color, of writers who will write these kinds of characters, given what's happening in the industry right now?

MS. JAGANNATHAN: I think what is happening in the industry is really for all of us. I would say women writers of color are paid the least and have the least leverage, have the least power, and therefore, the least leverage. And I think this is going to rise the boats for everybody.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Let's hope so.

And what about the role of the streaming platforms? So Netflix, you know, in making this series--and I can think of some other series, "Sex Education," where they have very diverse casts, and those shows do really well for Netflix, these shows with diverse casts. What do you think the role is of the streaming platforms of Netflix but also others and leaning out and taking on these shows? Is it still a high risk thing to do? Is it just the right thing to do? How should they be thinking about this?

MS. JAGANNATHAN: I mean, I really am one of the happiest employees of Netflix. I just feel like they take such risks, and they take risks on such diverse shows and diverse storylines. And I got to say--I'm kind of trying to word this, but I feel like the relationship between Netflix and its audience is a little porous. Like when network TV happened, I felt like they--a bunch of executives just making a decision on like, oh, we want another comedy to fill in this slot, but we should look like this comedy, and let's put it out there. But I feel Netflix is really in tune with its audiences, and they have a global audience, so they really have to listen.

But I feel like viewers are demanding to see themselves. They've had it with what is being reflected to them, which is not them. They want to see themselves, and I feel like places like streaming platforms like Netflix are able to meet them where they need to be. And it is my firm belief, shows like "Never Have I Ever," not only reflect who we are but also give us a path for who we can be for something as simple as a non-acrimonious mother-in-law/daughter-in-law relationship has never been portrayed on TV and definitely not part of the kind of what you--a South Asian narrative. They're always at odds, right? So the fact that we are--the mother-in-law stands up for me and as an ally is a new way of being, and I feel like Netflix just has the space and the vision and the risk -taking ability to tell this. And I think "Never Have I Ever" actually has allowed a lot of stories that are nuanced and of color to be green lit.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: So I like this idea of Hollywood and the entertainment industry taking on the mantle of showing us utopic ideals, showing us imaginary futures that ought to be the kinds of futures that we aspire to having in society. I think that's a really noble and interesting idea.

I want to ask you a more personal question, which is that I've heard that you are approaching your own empty nest, even as that's happening on the show, and I want to know how you're feeling about that and how it maybe relates to your experience of portraying Nalini on the show.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Oh, people keep asking me, is it like "Never Have I Ever"? Like it's a combination of a show I did called "The Night Of" and probably "Euphoria." Like I wish I was having a "Never Have I Ever" experience.

It is so funny because he's at that age that Devi was, and my reactions are so different from Nalini's, you know. Nalini always has an emotion ready. Like she's always--she can be angry in an instant, or she can have words that come out of her mouth. I am left absolutely speechless at what my son does constantly. I'm like--the show really prepared me. I didn't go to college here, so this whole like college--you know, I actually don't know. No one had a plan until I did "Never Have I Ever" and learned about some stuff. And so it's really helping us get him ready and have those conversations.

But you know, what I've learned from the show, I will tell you more than anything else, is I have understood how to be the role of mothering. It's not what I thought it was. I've learned from the show that the role of a mother, the role of a parent, the only role, the only thing that--thing that children are looking for is a sense of belonging from your parents. Like your kids need to know that they belong to you. They may not belong in different spaces in the outside world, especially when they're teenagers. It's so hostile, but you need to always let them know that they belong to you.

So I have stopped putting all sorts of pressure or have these conversations about what his future should be or look like or whatever and just have been focusing on just giving him an intense sense of belonging. and I completely learned that from the show.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: That's beautiful.

So this has been your longest-running role on TV, and I'm just curious, what's next for you? Where can we expect to see you?

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Well, I'm on a movie called "The Out-Laws" on Netflix, and I play a mafia leader. And I just--I'm just trigger happy, absolutely ridiculous and funny, with Adam DeVine and Pierce Brosnan, and that releases soon. And then I go on to play yet another gangster on a--on a series on Disney called "Deli Boys," and they--we're running a bunch of delis, and then it turns out we're just doing like a--they're running a cocaine business. So those are my two amazing gangster-themed projects.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Somehow from immigrant mom to gangster makes perfect sense to me. I don't know why, but it seems to make sense. Thank you so much.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: I would say after running a household full of Indian women, the only logical thing I can do is run a mafia den for sure.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: You've got all the strategy in place, right, dealing with the tough personalities. In fact, you know, maybe they're easier on the drug dealing end.

MS. JAGANNATHAN: Dealing with the constant [unclear], yes, totally.

MS. VENKATARAMAN: Well, thank you so much. We're out of time. But, Poorna Jagannathan, it's been such a pleasure. It's going to be a delight to watch you in the fourth and final season of this really seminal series, "Never Have I Ever," and to see you in the films you mentioned coming up next.

I want to thank everyone else in our audience also for joining us. To check out what interviews we have coming up next, please go to WashingtonPostLive.com.

Thank you, and have a great day.

[End recorded session]